Gita Wisdom

[00:00:00] Joshua: Welcome, everyone. Welcome back to our weekly Tuesday discussion of Bhagavad Gita. As we’ve mentioned in the past is the continuation of what used to be a live event at Jivamukti yoga, and then out here on long Island Everveda, Ayurvedic retreat.

[00:00:18] We try to take the Bhagavad Gita and put it into a contemporary context and Yadunath will be joining us any moment.

[00:00:26] He’s a founding member of Chicago City Limits improv ensemble.  If you’re in New York, you might have to the Chicago City Limits program. They’re hysterically funny.

[00:00:39] So, we are in Bhagavad Gita, sixth chapter, and tonight we are discussing verse 19 . So from Srila Prabhupada’s Bhagavad Gita As It Is, if you have your edition, you’re welcome to follow along. First the invocation.

[00:01:12] Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya

[00:01:12] Bhagavad Gita, chapter six verse 19 yathā dīpo nivāta-stho neṅgate sopamā smṛtā yogino yata-cittasya yuñjato yogam ātmanaḥ

[00:01:32] Translation of six chapter verse 19. As a lamp in a windless place does not waiver, so the transcendentalist whose mind is controlled remains always steadfast in his meditation on the transcendental self. 

[00:01:55] As a lamp in a windless place, does not waiver, so the transcendentalist whose mind is controlled remains always steady in this meditation, on the transcendent self. The self here, by the way, is, you’ll notice that it’s, if you have your copy of the Gita, Self is capitalized here. Because when we talk about meditation on the transcendent self, for many schools of yoga, that is meditation on oneself, the atma within the heart. In the Bhakti school, the meditation is on the transcendent self with a capital S. That is Krishna, the  paramatma, antarayami, indwelling witness who is side by side with the soul in the region of the heart. So the meditation for the bhakti yogis is on the Supreme being. And the example is, given that when the sun rises in the morning, and you can see the sun, automatically, it means that you can see yourself as well. 

[00:03:01] So in Bhakti, there’s no need for a separate effort to realize ourselves as transcendent beings by meditating on the Lotus feet of the Supreme Being. A concommitent of realizing Krishna is realizing ourselves as sparks of Krishna as well.

[00:03:19] So it’s a, it’s a natural consequence of that meditation on the Supreme Self in the heart. So, ah, there’s Yadunath. I’ve already introduced you, by the way, as a founding member of Chicago city limits. Please join me if you would in welcoming Yadunath. So glad he’s here with us every week. You know, it’s funny how a wild standing ovation gets you kind of flattened out on zoom, kind of quiet, you know?

[00:03:49]Yadunath: I haven’t received them live, so I don’t know what they’re like. I’m sorry, I’m late because my link was not working, but Anuradha prabhu sent me a new one, which got me here. 

[00:04:02] Joshua: Well, however you made it, we’re delighted. I love that, Yadunath, you know, I get to share the cushion with Yadunath here because for me, Yadunath embodies that wisdom of George Bernard Shaw who once said, if you’re going to tell people the truth, you better make them laugh or they’ll kill you.

[00:04:21] Yadunath: That’s Shaw?

[00:04:22] Joshua: Yes. And you’ve learned that very well. Now, if you can stand the jokes here, we are listener-sponsored, and you can make your donations at paypal.me/strmedia. And our thanks to you who are already supporters.

[00:04:37] Yadunath: That’s the nonprofit version of remember to tip your waitresses. We’ll be here all week. 

[00:04:44] Joshua: Yes. So we’ve just–Yadunath, to catch you up here we just read the 19th verse of the sixth chapter, “as a lamp in a windless place.” Now, I remember last week you raised a rather important issue, namely, [00:05:00] is this even possible? You know, it seems as though the Gita raises the goal, the bar, to such a high place that it’s hard to envision that we might actually attain to such a high level of self-control, mastery of the mind and senses, you know, does this really apply to us today or is this some text about a civilization from long ago when people lived in forest caves and so on? And coming up later in this chapter, actually, Arjuna in verse 33 admits that he thinks it’s impossible.

[00:05:42] Even Arujna, who was such an exalted devotee finds this standard of purity, of a yogic disciplined life, something outside the realm of possibility for himself. and we came to the conclusion [00:06:00] talking about this last week, that the answer, at least in large measure, if not completely lies in just the thing that we’re doing here each week–in sanga , in the opportunity to discuss and to refine our understanding of that life,  so that the Gita may challenge us to reach a very high standard, but it never insists that we have to do it alone or that it’s something that we don’t have the ability  to achieve. 

[00:06:28] I was thinking about this and it occurs to me that  Americans, you know, as I watched things happening around the country, and I don’t know whether you’re a cable news junkie, like I am much of the time, but, as Americans, I think we tend to forget that the individualism that is encouraged in American culture is, in other parts of the world, considered a pejorative idea. It’s not considered  an advantage. Many other [00:07:00] cultures see that sense of, you know, the rugged individual as equating to  antisocial, equating to putting yourself above others and your welfare above others.  

[00:07:11] I spent years in France and the French make an interesting distinction between individualisme and individualité–between individualism and individuality, which is more about personal creativity and aspiring to a fulfilled life.  And it does not preclude what we’re doing here, which is sanga, being part of a community. So I guess if this shutdown time has reminded me of anything, it’s that I don’t think I can maintain this lamp in a windless place. You know, that steady mind without being able to unburden my mind to, you know, to friends. If I have to live, with my own issues on my own, then the only company I have is my own mind. And  that’s dangerous. 

[00:08:10] The mind is restless for a reason, by the way. It’s not, it’s not that this is some kind of trick or mistake of nature. The mind is restless because its job is to filter information. The mind takes in all kinds of impressions from the various sensory inputs, and it’s job is to very, very quickly decide. This is good. That’s bad. This is safe. That’s dangerous. That’s what the mind does. It’s part of our self preservation mechanism and that that’s a very healthy thing.

[00:08:40] But in order for that immediate process of determining good or bad, we like this, we don’t like this, to happen, there are these other functions, so many other functions of the mind that have to shut down. Reflection,  discernment, the time consuming functions that get in the way of that immediate self-preservation instinct.

[00:09:06] So, Yadunath, I know this is, this is your meteor. This is your field. You know, you, you help your students to cultivate a sense of group identity,  in improv classes and standup classes. Is there something about the way you do that that can help us, maybe that could help shed some light on this notion from the Gita about maintaining a mind in a steady place?

[00:09:32] How do you help your students achieve that?

[00:09:37]Yadunath: They’re really interesting parallels actually. You talk about being caught up in your mind and sort of not being able to see beyond it.  Have you ever had the experience where you had a dream and you sort of took it on one level and it wasn’t until you verbalized the dream to someone where you sort of got the import of it? Like this happened to me recently. I was just telling my how I had a dream and I felt like, Oh, this is what that dream was. But then when I was telling her, literally as I was telling her is when it got to me like, Oh, wow, that’s what that dream is, you know?  Just by dint of, of sharing it with another person come realizations. 

[00:10:22] I’ve taught improv to a lot of different kinds of groups.  Among the most interesting are when I do it- cause I do it in the workplace a lot. So, you know, team building kind of stuff. Among the most interesting groups are the corporate groups because there’s a lot of resistance right off the bat.

[00:10:41] So I get to see a lot of these people, mostly men, but not exclusively, and they just hold back. They hold back because they’re really worried about it because the work kind of tears away at our defense mechanisms to a degree. It doesn’t have to get very heavy, but just–it sort of naturally, brings down the wall, tears down the guard, the defense guard that we have up. So it’s really fascinating to see people often dread it and then get comfortable with it and they get more comfortable with it until they actually have a positive, uplifting experience. And that experience is becoming a part of what we call the group mind.

[00:11:30] And that is when you’re sharing- when each of us is sharing of ourselves so much, and we’re in the moment and to be in the moment means to  discount any other crap that our mind may want to tell us. Uh, and just to, to, to just be focused on the here and now where you sort of, when you do that, you sort of let go of any preconceptions of self, and you, you take on the synergy of the other people, you create a synergy with the other people and it becomes a group mind where if you see- 

[00:12:04]On “Whose Line is it Anyway”, it was an improv show on television. If you’ve seen it, like how do these guys just work off each other so quickly?

[00:12:12] It’s because they’re able to anticipate each other. They’re not working as two separate individuals, but they’re connected. So people are connected and are able to share. So, it goes beyond that which we can taste, touch and feel, and it’s on a whole other level.

[00:12:30] Joshua: Do you mind me asking, by a show of hands, how many of you in this discussion this evening have ever had a class in acting or improv or stand up? How many of you have done that? All right. So there’s a few here. Yadunath, you’re reminding me of some of the sessions that I’ve been in that you’ve given at some of our Heart of Yoga retreats, for example, and the real sense of freedom that comes with that [00:13:00] ability to just put the rest of life on hold, you know?

[00:13:04] And really just to be there in the moment as you’re talking about. Is there a secret to doing that? Life is just one pressure after another, you know, it’s one challenge after another. How do you put all of that aside long enough to achieve, I think what you’re talking about, which is very much like what’s being described here in the sixth chapter of the Gita, how do you allow yourself the comfort factor of being able to live like that?

[00:13:33] Yadunath: Yeah. Yeah. In these corporate settings I’m talking about, very often, as I was saying, there’s resistance, right? And what that resistance is can vary, but it kind of gets down to the same thing.

[00:13:47] Sometimes the resistance is,  I only want to contribute something if it’s- if it comes off as smart, you know? And the other side of that is, I don’t want to look dumb. I don’t want to look foolish, as opposed to dumb–different things. I want to contribute only if I know it’s going to be funny, only if I know it’s going to be successful. You know? So the answer to your question is it takes an active step you have to take to trust. And what is another word for trust? Faith. You have to have a little bit of faith. And I encourage students not to have blind faith and just take a flying leap.

[00:14:32] If you want to do that, that’s great, but you don’t have to do that. You can take a small step of faith and trust, dip your toes in the water, see how it feels, and, by that develop the confidence to take further steps. So that resistance, whether it’s the dumb thing or the, you know, I’m not creative–all these things that we, that the mind throws out at us, what it really comes down to, for me when I see all the different reasons, is [00:15:00] the fear of vulnerability. And here’s where we get at the crux of it because it’s essential to be vulnerable. 

[00:15:09] As an artist when we’re dealing with theater and improv or any other kind of art, but also as an aspiring spiritualist, and we don’t always  equate spirituality with vulnerability, but that’s exactly what it is. And most people want to keep their arm’s distance from vulnerability because we’ve been hurt so much. 

[00:15:33] Joshua: Yeah. As you’re speaking, I’m translating some of these ideas into the language of the Gita. And what you’re reminding me is that what Krishna is doing here with Arjuna is encouraging him to learn to trust. Arjuna, he didn’t trust himself and he didn’t trust Krishna. He didn’t trust the [00:16:00] job that he had to do. He had lost all confidence, to be able to approach these things with any degree of self-confidence. And it seems to me that the way we become this person that the sixth chapter of the Gita is describing, you know, someone capable of living a yogic life, an open life, a fulfilled life, is someone who loves himself.

[00:16:28] I question whether we can love anyone else or trust anyone else, to use your word, if we don’t love and trust ourselves.  I don’t think it’s possible  because we’ll always be projecting those, as you’re describing, those self insecurities we have about ourselves onto the situation and already judged that I’m not capable of doing this again. I can’t do it. That’s for someone else. 

[00:16:57] Yadunath: Yeah, I think we’ll all have the experience of being in a relationship where one person takes that first step toward trust and then I feel better about revealing something of myself. Right? It’s kind of natural. 

[00:17:14] Joshua: So that’s an interesting point. So I think what you’re saying is, it’ll come. The self confidence will come. The ability to trust will come. The ability to separate out all of the anxieties from the moment. Just be here at this moment, as part of this team. The, the, the problems are going to be there later. You can go back to them later. Don’t worry. They won’t disappear.

[00:17:40] They’ll be there for you later. In order to be there in this moment there, there needs to be that, that self confidence. Maybe that’s, just to put a cap on it, maybe that’s the most practical way of understanding the core teaching of the Gita, that I’m not my body. Maybe that’s the real translation of the idea that “I am not my body. I’m the consciousness within the body”, is to recognize whatever perceptions I have of my limitations, they’re of the moment. They’re not of the true core me. I’m something much more beautiful, much more complete, much more capable of participating in this moment. 

[00:18:30] So I’m curious, is there a way that you help students set aside, those insecurities so they can exude that confidence, you know, on a stage or in front of an audience? That’s very hard. 

[00:18:43] Yadunath: Yeah.  You have to understand, we all have to understand that it’s not that there’s not going to be discomfort, necessarily, but to be in the moment is to be with the discomfort and the discomfort,  passes much more quickly [00:19:00] if you’re with it as opposed to trying to resist it.

[00:19:03] The more we resist anything, the longer that thing stays with us because so much energy is going into the resistance. 

[00:19:12] Joshua: I would say, let me, if I may, just remind everyone here that you know, as much as I love to yack it up with Yadunath, this is a dialogue and you’re welcome to jump in here at any point. If you have questions, you can- Go on,

[00:19:27]Student: In looking at the chapter, when I first read the first couple of words, it talks about a lamp in a windless place and I was reminded of when I first started learning how to meditate. They said, focus on a flame on a candle. And one of the struggles I had with it was that it’s too hard to really focus on it because it keeps moving.

[00:19:52] And then I, just now, I was thinking, yeah, of course it’s kind of exemplifying your mind because your mind is [00:20:00] always moving. And then I thought, well, maybe the lamp in the windless place, the lamp is actually in my heart, not in my mind, because when I’m learning how to meditate, or sometimes when I sit down to meditate, especially if I’ve had a very hectic day or hectic week, my mind is thinking of how, can I get there?

[00:20:22] And I’m thinking maybe there is no getting there. Maybe there’s just acknowledging that it’s already here. I don’t know.  That’s what comes up for me. Maybe that stillness, that lamp, that’s not flickering, is a constant light that’s always within me. 

[00:20:42] That’s wonderful. I think Anuradha, weren’t you and I talking about this earlier, that Bhakti is not some, you know, gold ring, that you go around the Merry-go-round and you either get the ring or you don’t get the ring.

[00:20:57] Joshua: It’s  not some thing that you get it. It’s a state of being that’s cultivated. That’s already present there. I mean, Yadunath, I would imagine at some point this has got to come up the classes as well. This isn’t something imposed. You’re not being expected to become something you’re no. Learning to live the life we have, the life we are, without all the anxieties and fears and insecurities and doubts that come along every day. 

[00:21:29] Yadunath: Right. And I think that’s a really major realization that she had because  we spend most of our lives, most people, looking externally for the thing.

[00:21:39] So to understand that it’s with us, it’s always been with us. We can go internally no matter what’s happening in the outside circumstance. 

[00:21:48] Joshua: All right. But let me be devil’s advocate here for a moment. And, um, it all sounds lovely, you know, just go to your core self and become the lamp in a windless place.

[00:22:01] Practically speaking though, what does that mean? How does someone who lives like that, live his or her life differently from anybody else?  Especially right now, there’s a situation that comes up that I know for myself, I’m being pressed into being someone I haven’t been. Someone who’s very different from the person I normally consider myself being.

[00:22:31] I’m having to deal with a mother who is- I have no idea how much longer she has to live. I’m being asked to deal with an environment where I can’t even shake hands with somebody. Somebody came here today to repair our air conditioning system and I had to put on a mask and gloves and it’s like, you know, we’re alien creatures walking around and if anything, we’re pressed into being a very different kind of person.

[00:23:01]What is it like? I mean, I’m curious. Has anyone had a moment, even one moment of an experience where you’ve had a glimpse of that life? I mean, I can think of one or two moments in my own life when I said, Oh, wow, yeah, it can be like that. Has anyone else here, is this all theory or has anyone in our little group had a moment when you thought, okay, now I think I’m getting a sense of where this is going, what that kind of a life would be? Living that kind of a self-assured yogic life. Yeah. 

[00:23:38] Student: What I think of is thinking of life as a meditation rather than meditation being something that I get to do at the end of the day or at the beginning of day. That’s my moment to be quiet, so to speak, and to listen, to hear God’s voice. And I’m trying now, especially because we’re living in a world where [00:24:00] there’s so many dramatic things that every time you turn around there’s a new crisis. You know, it’s hurricane Sandy, or there’s the pandemic or whatever. So it’s easy to live your life in a reactionary mode. So I’m trying now to think, especially because we’ve had so much time to be alone, how can I bring this quiet that I’ve achieved by being quiet for the past two months, how can I bring that into the world and my daily life once things start kicking in again? And I thought, well, I’ll try to think of life as being a meditation.  Look at the skills that go into meditation: practicing mindfulness, concentration. And I thought, well, why not live your life out of that?

[00:24:42] When you find yourself reacting, ask how can I bring mindfulness into this moment? How can I bring concentration into this moment? And perhaps I’ll find a more creative and a more workable solution to whatever problem or complication is showing up in front of me. 

[00:25:00] Joshua: Nice. Nicely said.  Um, recently, within the past couple of days, something happened that made me really angry. Really, really angry. I mean, angry, like I haven’t been angry in a very, very long time.  I shocked myself.

[00:25:17] I had to step back away from that moment and say, how is it that, you know, sage Yogesvara,  who’s been teaching since 1722 and supposed to know all the verses of the Bhagavad Gita, you know, such a spiritual guy, how is it I’m still susceptible to this kind of heightened emotion, dangerously heightened, negative feelings?

[00:25:46] And I think at that moment, it was a very good reminder for me that we’re all still very fallible creatures. That all of the good instruction in the world and all of the wise Sanskrit sayings in the Vedic library are, aren’t worth much if we forget that we are all fallible creatures and we really need one another.

[00:26:21] I was angry at someone because I think I felt that I need this person more than I want to need this person. And that got me angry cause I thought, no, I want to be heading toward independence. That’s where we started our discussion, I want to be heading toward a place where I’m self-sufficient and I don’t depend on anybody else.

[00:26:45] And I realized how sad that is. And it led to this moment of real anger. If we actually believe the rhetoric, if we believe what we’ve been studying here for so long, if we really understand and accept this foundational idea that this is not me, this is the vehicle and that I’m in here and I really am this beautiful creature inside this I just don’t know me, I’m not familiar with me any longer, I want to get to know me again, I want to get to know myself as that beautiful creature. If I really accept that and I’d be hard-pressed to think that anybody on these weekly discussions hasn’t had some moment of insight.

[00:27:36] I’m ready to challenge anybody on this discussion who claims that they’ve never had a moment when there wasn’t this breakthrough. When you said, you know what? I think I really am an eternal being. I have a sense of that now, of myself as something different from the circumstances around me.

[00:27:57] And it was a really good reminder for me that this gathering, this weekly discussion is critically important for me. For me, after 50 years, I’m going to be 70 next week, right? 50 years of doing this stuff. I depend on the good company that you provide to help me remember who I really am. And without you, without having this sanga, I fall prey to my own mental gyrations and creations, which separates me out. And as soon as I’m separated out, that’s when I fall into difficulty because then, all of a sudden, I have to protect myself. I have to get what I need on my own. And the whole illusion of material life gets nourished and starts to build up momentum again.

[00:29:00] So what can I say? I thank you all for helping me remember the value of these teachings in my life, and I hope that you’re all deriving something useful for yourselves as well and I hope to see you again next week. Yadunath, thank you for being the sounding board and the compliment to these discussions.

[00:29:29] And, please join me if you would, in the Vaishnava Pranam.

vāñchā-kalpatarubhyaś ca kṛpā-sindhubhya eva ca
patitānāḿ pāvanebhyo vaiṣṇavebhyo namo namaḥ

[00:29:45] Overlapping Voices: Jai. Hare Krishna. I wish you all a wonderful week. Thank you. You too. Happy birthday. Have a great week everyone.

.

Joshua 0:06
Welcome. We’re reading from Bhagavad Gita as it is, we’re in the sixth chapter. This is verse 18.

yadā viniyataṁ cittam
ātmany evāvatiṣṭhate
nispṛhaḥ sarva-kāmebhyo
yukta ity ucyate tadā.

Yada–when. There’s a very famous verse in the Bhagavad Gita, fourth chapter, yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata, “when”, Krishna says, “yada”. When there is a decline in the principles of spiritual governance, and a rise of evil, at that time I descend into the world. So here we find the word yada here, as well. In this sixth chapter, yada then viniyatam particularly disciplined. Cittam, I bet some of you know what chitta refers to. Any guesses?

Student 1:18
Well often it’s referred to as the mind stuff.

Joshua 1:22
Yes. Yes, the actions and agitations of the mind. Very good. ātmani- in the transcendence, from atma, the self, transcendent self. eva–certainly. avatiṣṭhate–become situated. nispṛhaḥ–devoid of desire. sarva–for all kinds of. kāmebhyaḥ–material sense gratification. kama, we know the word kama. yuktaḥ–well situated in yoga. That’s a word that comes up very often yuktah. yuktahara-viharasya yukta-cestasya karmasu.

Rupa Goswami talks about yukta-vairāgya–that there’s vairāgya, there’s renunciation. There’s markata-vairagya and yukta-vairāgya. markata-vairagya is the reununciation of the monkeys. Monkeys are very rennounced. They live naked up in trees and they have sex all day long. But that kind of renunciation is not yukta-vairagya. yukta-vairagya means appropriate renunciation.

Appropriate renunciation can take place even in the midst of great material comforts. If the mentality is “all of this is a gift of God, I wish to engage this in God’s service”, that is yukta-vairagya. In order to be vairagya, renounced, you don’t have to wear rags and go around with a begging bowl. You can live in a very comfortable situation if the mentality of selflessness prevails.

So here we have yukta–well situated in yoga. Iti–thus. ucyate–is said to be, and tadā–at that time. Here’s the translation. When the yogī, by practice of yoga, disciplines his mental activities and becomes situated in transcendence – devoid of all material desires – he is said to be well situated in yoga. Translation again, when the yogī, by practice of yoga, disciplines his mental activities and becomes situated in transcendence – devoid of all material desire – he is said to be well established in yoga.

Alright, so Yadunath, I don’t know about you, but as I was thinking about comments for this verse tonight, the thing that kept coming back to me again and again is, this seems like such an impossible place to reach. It just seems so elevated. This is such a high state. You know, we are living, completely devoid of all mental agitation, completely free from all material desires, all selfish impulses, and anything that sullies the pure, transcendent self. It’s such an elevated place. Such a high place, you really have to use great imagination to imagine what it would be like to live like that. And I don’t know whether you had any initial thoughts. I took a couple of notes on it. What’s your take on on this verse? Have you had any initial impressions about it?

Yadunath 4:57
Well, yeah, I mean, the difficulty of it is just striking. I mean, it says, devoid of all material desires, like you say the impossibility of it all. It also, it makes me think, does this mean we don’t wish each other well? Is it a material desire if I want my children to be happy or attain a certain status in life? Or if I want to be able to provide in a certain way or I mean it’s, it’s a big can of worms that Krishna is opening. I know those worms–there’s a spirit soul in the worms, too, so it’s no diss on the worms. I’m just saying it’s big.

Joshua 5:45
Even worms deserve a place in our thoughts. Yes. Yeah, but it is very challenging though. I mean, this image that’s painted, in the Sanskrit texts, of yogis is very austere beings. I mean, they seem so far removed from an active life of social commitment, of family commitment, of the world that we’re familiar with and it reminded me of a letter. Julie, you may have heard this letter before I read it once or twice.

This is something that I got back in May of 2012. So, eight years ago. This was a letter from a fellow who used to come to the Gita classes at Jivamukti. And he’s a yogi father. All right, so here’s what he wrote, “Dear Yogesvara, I’ve been reflecting on our discussions about balancing the material and spiritual parts of our lives and as much as I want my son to know the spiritual side, I could not live with myself if I didn’t prepare him materially. How could I live with myself if I send him into this crazy world, thinking that his father failed to give him what he needed to survive.” That’s a very real emotion. “On the other hand, the Bhagavad Gita is such a radical document and it warns us from the beginning that sooner or later we have to switch off from the material world and all that it entails. What is ‘you are not the body’ if not a challenge, to resist getting caught up in the trivia of this one lifetime?” These are some wonderful insights, very challenging thoughts here. “I can’t begin to tell you how conflicted this makes me about my son and about myself. American work ethic…” there’s two more paragraphs. I really want to read this to you. “American work ethic and real yoga seem to be at opposite ends of the scale. Work ethic says we should find our salvation in sticking our hands in the mud and working hard. But in the Gita, there’s so much praise for renunciation and a life of chanting and meditation, that I’d be very surprised if a lot of other students don’t feel as torn as I do right now.” All right, now check this out. “There’s a level of toughness you need to accomplish anything in life, which is something they teach in time management seminars. I have never had that capacity and it has stopped me from being more successful. There is a kind of toughness as well in the Gita, at least the way you describe it. Namely, know you are not the body but the soul. Accept, at least in theory, that Krishna is the Supreme Being, keep good association and steady practice, and don’t allow yourself to get discouraged or distracted. And if you don’t follow that formula, especially the part about not getting discouraged, then you end up in a trough of despondency, which is where I am currently, sending you this letter, a father who wants to love his son but who doesn’t know what it means, practically. Should I encourage him to set up a stable material life? Or is that irrelevant? And should I tell him to focus on chanting? Any thoughts would be deeply appreciated.”

So, the reason I still have this letter eight years later, is I can’t even figure out what to tell him.

Yadunath 9:37
He’s still waiting for your reply, is that right?

Joshua 9:38
He’s still waiting for a reply. Because it’s such such a challenging thought, you know, we are given this ideal example, this very elevated example of what it means to be a spiritual person. And Yadunath, you and I’ve talked about this a lot. I mean, I don’t consider myself to be in that category. I share with you guys whatever it is that I’ve learned and understood over the course of the last 50 years since I first got initiation from Srila Prabhupada. I try to understand what it means and I try to share that with you but I can’t claim that I’ve had any really profound realizations about this. What I do know is that I’m completely convinced about this one thing, that I’m not this body. That I that I know for certain. As real as I know that we are talking together right now over Zoom… that’s how real I know I’m not this body.

Yadunath 10:45
How do you know that so well? How is it that you know that so emphatically?

Joshua 10:54
Because there have been moments, there have been moments, in chanting, particularly, but also just going about life in the everyday world when something happens and I find myself stepping back away from the immediacy of what I’m doing or what I’m saying or who I’m talking to, and it’s like I’m watching myself, I’m watching me living this life. And it seems so evident that I am different from the experiences that I’m having. That the life I’m living is not the life I am. It’s where I am at this moment. I have that a lot these days when I go to visit my mom because… I’ve told you guys, she’s 94. I remember her going out on weekends when she was younger, playing tennis and going on dates or whatever. She’s 94 now and it’s like another lifetime. Every time I visit her it’s like going at a time machine. I’m back there in my head. So I know that I’m different from this particular moment, this temporary construct of the moment. But what I am, what I am beyond that, that’s a privileged place. It takes some work to get there.

I have a poem. Reading this verse also brought this to mind because it strikes me that maybe we’re too hard on ourselves, or maybe I’m too hard on myself, if I think that we have to live up to some impossibly high standard. Even Arjuna. Three verses from now Arjuna is going to tell Krishna, I can’t do this. I can’t practice this yoga the way you’re describing, it’s too hard for me. So what is accessible to us in our current state? I love this poem by E.E. Cummings. Any E.E. Cummings fans out there? Yeah.

i thank You God for most this amazing
day:for the leaping greenly spirits of trees
and a blue true dream of sky;and for everything
wich is natural which is infinite which is yes

(i who have died am alive again today,
and this is the sun’s birthday;this is the birth
day of life and love and wings:and of the gay
great happening illimitably earth)

how should tasting touching hearing seeing
breathing any-lifted from the no
of all nothing-human merely being
doubt unimaginable You?

(now the ears of my ears awake and
now the eyes of my eyes are opened)

So that right there, that’s about as close a description to, jivanmukta, self-realization, the perfection of yoga that we’re reading about, as I can understand. That I can come close to understanding–that we’re surrounded by miracles at every moment. And what I think Cummings is describing here is love, it’s the state of love. And isn’t that really what it’s all about it? How do you reach that place where you controlled your mind, you have no material desires, you have no interest in this world at all? I don’t think it’s possible if you’re not in love. How many of you out there have been in love? Let’s see by show hands.

Yeah, we’ve all had that great moment when all of a sudden, dark things started to brighten up and irreconcilable things started to get reconciled, and chaos started to make sense, and you really had a reason to get up in the morning, you know, because you were in love. I think that’s ultimately what this is all about. It’s accepting that there is this ultimate love of my life and he’s speaking to me through his Gita, through his song, encouraging me to open the door and just let him in.

Yadunath 15:58
May I throw something at you here?

Joshua 16:01
Throw away.

Yadunath 16:02
Here it comes. Is it possible– I don’t mean to be offensive in any way. But is it possible– because Krishna hammers this high standard in the Gita, and in Bhagavad Gita As It Is, by Srila Prabhupada, Prabhupada really, really maintains that intensity of such a high standard, like you were saying, a standard that seems impossible for us. Is it possible that they’re talking about the highest standard… partially in an effort to yank us away from the familiar? Because, unbeknownst to us, the familiar is keeping us tethered to a life of suffering? And because we don’t know it, it takes all that much to yank us away. And I’m wondering, it’s been said that if you shoot for the moon and fail, you fall among the stars. Maybe, to try for the standard and to fail, but to at least unleash ourselves from the conditioning of this physical world where that is designed for pain, really, as beautiful as much of it is and as wonderful as much of it can be, we can’t escape the fact that there’s always loss. Might that not be an intention there?

Joshua 17:46
Well, it’s an interesting idea that the bar is being set impossibly high just to give us that opportunity to realize that we cannot afford to get stuck in the familiar, that we can’t afford to buy into the temporary reality just because it’s accessible, that we have to keep our eyes set higher.

Yadunath 18:13
Yeah, well, I know for myself, I’ve recognized that this sort of idea of being conscious of God, I liked the idea that it seemed to be a lifestyle thing. It made sense to me that it needed to be a lifestyle thing, a 24/7 way of living, as opposed to something you yank out of the closet once a week, twice a week or whatever. That made sense to me. And the more that I submitted myself to that process, in a holistic way as I could–I never lived in a temple or anything like that–but as much as I could do that, I was poising myself to fall because, without that immersion, there was no question of that love being available.

Joshua 19:06
Okay. All right, I see where you’re going. Let me see if I can paraphrase that and you tell me if I’m getting what you’re driving it. You can’t love somebody you don’t know.

Yadunath 19:19
That’s pretty succinct, man.

Joshua 19:21
That you need to surround yourself, you need to be aspiring to that place where youhave no longer any interest in anything other than Krishna. And then you can begin to love him. How can you love someone you don’t know and whom you’re not dedicated to?

Yadunath 19:44
One result of loving Krishna is loving all of Krishna’s other children. So therefore taking care of my son is the most natural thing in the world.

Joshua 19:55
Yeah. You put me in mind of a couple who came to see Prabhupada in Paris back in the mid 70s. They had been coming to the temple for quite some time. They were an older gentleman and lady and I knew that they had a son with disabilities, which is why they weren’t coming more often. So I arranged for them to meet Prabhupada and there were mutual introductions, and he asked them specifically about that. He said, Why don’t you come more often? And they said, we feel we have an obligation to be with our son, because he was born with a deformity in his arm. So one arm is deformed and he can’t use it. So he needs extra help and attention. Prabhpuada sat for a very long moment and his response to them- I mean, here we are, 45 years later and I’m still remembering what he told them. He said, we have got to accept our limitations. He said, What can you do? Can you grow your son a new arm? Can you reverse his condition and bring him to some other place? And because you are unable to do that, are you now condemned to sacrifice your own spiritual life? He said, your best service to your son will be by setting an example of being Krishna Conscious. By being of that, if you will, that higher standard that we’ve been talking about. It blew me away because I thought, Wow, that’s daring. It kind of skirted the edge of almost saying don’t pay attention to your needful son just come to the temple. And I know that’s not what he had in mind. That’s not what he meant. But it was really a strong reminder. Don’t make excuses. If you want an excuse for staying away from spiritual life, you’ll find it. You’ll find there are plenty of excuses out there. And believe me, you’re going to find it. It’s like my relationship with exercise. Oh, I can’t really do it today. Any excuse. Exercise and God, right? Very, very easy to do that.

But here’s the opposite side. I found this in my in my notes today. This is from Srila Rupa Goswami’s text, Ujjvala-nilamani (The Sapphire of Divine Love). He wrote–this is in the 16th century–“Krishna is so grateful.” Check this out. “Krishna is so grateful that he allows himself to become controlled by one who performs even the slightest service. He is so forgiving and tolerant that he smiles patiently even if the greatest unforgivable offense is committed against him. He is so compassionate that his heart becomes tormented if he sees others suffering even slightly. Okay, I want to get to know that person.

Yadunath 23:46
What’s not to fall in love with, right?

Joshua 23:51
The idea that God Himself is controlled by the love of His devotee, that he will do whatever his devotee wants… The only example we have a power in this world is conceit. It’s conceited. It’s self serving. It’s ugly. It’s hurtful of others. You know power corrupts right. And absolute power we have come to see corrupts absolutely. So when you think about someone who’s all powerful, you think of someone who would just be indifferent to the sufferings of others. And yet, here’s this amazing description of someone who is exactly the opposite. He allows himself to be controlled by one who performs even the slightest service.

Yadunath 24:47
Talking about renunciation, He’s renounced his own power.

Joshua 24:55
He’s not preoccupied by his own godhood. There’s a description in the- in the other realms below Krishna loka, the ultimate world of Krishna, the relationship with God is one of awe and reverence. People approach have this image of the all-powerful, so you come as a supplicant to the all-powerful. In the descriptions given in Krishna book and the Bhagavata Purana, of the residents of Krishna’s village- I mean, imagine what is God’s ultimate form? It’s not some King with a throne and a crown. He’s a coward boy. He’s tending cows, actually calves. Cows, are for the older guys. He tends calves and the residents of that village, his friends, they don’t hold it against him that he’s God. Yeah, he may be God, he may be some powerful demigod, whatever. He’s Krishna and we love him.

Yadunath 26:05
You know, I love that so much because he’s so renounced he’s willing to renounce his godhood just to experience a loving relationship. People often get so uptight like, why does God need to be worshipped? He doesn’t want to be worshipped. He just wants to share love. Perfect. I’m giddy.

Joshua 26:30
Yeah, it’s pretty wonderful. So maybe we don’t have to be too intimidated by this verse from the Bhagavad Gita. Maybe it really is, as you were saying, Yadunath, a kind of reminder that there’s this other place where we can live–this space in the heart where we’re detached from the vagaries of the mind and the senses. Not because we’re strong stalwart Yogi ascetics, but because we’re so in love that we don’t have time for anything else. That’s the world of bhakti. That’s the world of devotional service. That’s pretty cool.

Yadunath 27:22
Mary just added something to the chat here, which I think you can address.

Joshua 27:30
“Would you say that Prabhpuada reached/lived in this state?” Yeah. Yeah, I would. Sure. It was memorable, being with someone who loved God so deeply. He would just walk into the temple room and look at the deities of Radha and Krishna and start weeping. [pause] Yes, the answer is yes. Yeah.

Yadunath 28:09
That must have been something for you to witness–that kind of living example. Just to take in his love for what looks to people like a statue, but that’s not what he was experiencing at all.

Joshua 28:28
Yeah, um, he was very approachable. I mean, one thing people are always asking is what it was like to be with a pure devotee of God, you know? They were moments when it was… not terrifying, but you really felt like an outsider to his world. You know, wherever he is, I’m not ready for it. Because he was so unselfish. Everything about him was, you know, every word, every discussion, every gesture, every thought was for the well being of others and he was always talking about Krishna. I mean, he had to be in love with Him, he was always talking Krishna. There’s only Krishna, there’s Krishna there, everything is about Krishna.

One time we were on a walk in London and I was the only married person in a group of renunciant sannyasi. You know, the big devotees, the big guys with their dandas and shaved heads, walking with Prabhupada. And Prabhupada was telling a story, a very strange story about a man who completely lost his whole spiritual track in life because he fell in love with a woman who had long black hair, and there was some jocularity about it. You know about how men are, you know, so susceptible to beauty. And I’m walking along, I think all of 20 years old, right? I’m thinking okay, how do I get to be a part of this conversation? So I blurted out to Prabhupada, “Krishna has long black hair.” And he stopped walking. He jammed his cane into the ground, looked at me and he said, “why are you dragging Krishna into this? We’re talking about Maya.” So naturally, everybody’s laughing. Prabhupada turns around and looks at all of these sanyasis, sees all these renunciants and he says, “No, no, no, no. Do not laugh. That is his credit. That even in these light hearted conversations, he is thinking about Krishna.” So of course, you know, I didn’t deserve credit like that, but that’s what Prabhupada was like, non-stop, 24/7. You could be starting way out over here with some subject, you know the cost of pots and pans or something in the newspaper, and within 30 seconds, Wham!, he’s brought it right back to God. Got it right back to Krishna. That’s what it was like to be with him. He could not help himself. He was helplessly addicted to loving Krishna. That that’s what it was like. It was a wonderful thing to see. Because you realize, wow, Krishna’s gotta be real. This has got to be real.

So I wish you all that realization of Krishna and that euphoric experience of loving Krishna. And please continue with your chanting. And please continue reading Bhagavad Gita, which is this wonderful discussion between Krishna and his loving, devotee-warrior Arjuna. We’ll meet again next week and talk about more from chapter six of the Bhagavad Gita. Please join me in the Vaishnava pranam.

vancha-kalpatarubhyas ca kripa-sindhubhya eva ca
patitanam pavanebhyo vaishnavebhyo namo namah