Impossible Standards of Spiritual Life [BG 6.18]

Joshua 0:06
Welcome. We’re reading from Bhagavad Gita as it is, we’re in the sixth chapter. This is verse 18.

yadā viniyataṁ cittam
ātmany evāvatiṣṭhate
nispṛhaḥ sarva-kāmebhyo
yukta ity ucyate tadā.

Yada–when. There’s a very famous verse in the Bhagavad Gita, fourth chapter, yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata, “when”, Krishna says, “yada”. When there is a decline in the principles of spiritual governance, and a rise of evil, at that time I descend into the world. So here we find the word yada here, as well. In this sixth chapter, yada then viniyatam particularly disciplined. Cittam, I bet some of you know what chitta refers to. Any guesses?

Student 1:18
Well often it’s referred to as the mind stuff.

Joshua 1:22
Yes. Yes, the actions and agitations of the mind. Very good. ātmani- in the transcendence, from atma, the self, transcendent self. eva–certainly. avatiṣṭhate–become situated. nispṛhaḥ–devoid of desire. sarva–for all kinds of. kāmebhyaḥ–material sense gratification. kama, we know the word kama. yuktaḥ–well situated in yoga. That’s a word that comes up very often yuktah. yuktahara-viharasya yukta-cestasya karmasu.

Rupa Goswami talks about yukta-vairāgya–that there’s vairāgya, there’s renunciation. There’s markata-vairagya and yukta-vairāgya. markata-vairagya is the reununciation of the monkeys. Monkeys are very rennounced. They live naked up in trees and they have sex all day long. But that kind of renunciation is not yukta-vairagya. yukta-vairagya means appropriate renunciation.

Appropriate renunciation can take place even in the midst of great material comforts. If the mentality is “all of this is a gift of God, I wish to engage this in God’s service”, that is yukta-vairagya. In order to be vairagya, renounced, you don’t have to wear rags and go around with a begging bowl. You can live in a very comfortable situation if the mentality of selflessness prevails.

So here we have yukta–well situated in yoga. Iti–thus. ucyate–is said to be, and tadā–at that time. Here’s the translation. When the yogī, by practice of yoga, disciplines his mental activities and becomes situated in transcendence – devoid of all material desires – he is said to be well situated in yoga. Translation again, when the yogī, by practice of yoga, disciplines his mental activities and becomes situated in transcendence – devoid of all material desire – he is said to be well established in yoga.

Alright, so Yadunath, I don’t know about you, but as I was thinking about comments for this verse tonight, the thing that kept coming back to me again and again is, this seems like such an impossible place to reach. It just seems so elevated. This is such a high state. You know, we are living, completely devoid of all mental agitation, completely free from all material desires, all selfish impulses, and anything that sullies the pure, transcendent self. It’s such an elevated place. Such a high place, you really have to use great imagination to imagine what it would be like to live like that. And I don’t know whether you had any initial thoughts. I took a couple of notes on it. What’s your take on on this verse? Have you had any initial impressions about it?

Yadunath 4:57
Well, yeah, I mean, the difficulty of it is just striking. I mean, it says, devoid of all material desires, like you say the impossibility of it all. It also, it makes me think, does this mean we don’t wish each other well? Is it a material desire if I want my children to be happy or attain a certain status in life? Or if I want to be able to provide in a certain way or I mean it’s, it’s a big can of worms that Krishna is opening. I know those worms–there’s a spirit soul in the worms, too, so it’s no diss on the worms. I’m just saying it’s big.

Joshua 5:45
Even worms deserve a place in our thoughts. Yes. Yeah, but it is very challenging though. I mean, this image that’s painted, in the Sanskrit texts, of yogis is very austere beings. I mean, they seem so far removed from an active life of social commitment, of family commitment, of the world that we’re familiar with and it reminded me of a letter. Julie, you may have heard this letter before I read it once or twice.

This is something that I got back in May of 2012. So, eight years ago. This was a letter from a fellow who used to come to the Gita classes at Jivamukti. And he’s a yogi father. All right, so here’s what he wrote, “Dear Yogesvara, I’ve been reflecting on our discussions about balancing the material and spiritual parts of our lives and as much as I want my son to know the spiritual side, I could not live with myself if I didn’t prepare him materially. How could I live with myself if I send him into this crazy world, thinking that his father failed to give him what he needed to survive.” That’s a very real emotion. “On the other hand, the Bhagavad Gita is such a radical document and it warns us from the beginning that sooner or later we have to switch off from the material world and all that it entails. What is ‘you are not the body’ if not a challenge, to resist getting caught up in the trivia of this one lifetime?” These are some wonderful insights, very challenging thoughts here. “I can’t begin to tell you how conflicted this makes me about my son and about myself. American work ethic…” there’s two more paragraphs. I really want to read this to you. “American work ethic and real yoga seem to be at opposite ends of the scale. Work ethic says we should find our salvation in sticking our hands in the mud and working hard. But in the Gita, there’s so much praise for renunciation and a life of chanting and meditation, that I’d be very surprised if a lot of other students don’t feel as torn as I do right now.” All right, now check this out. “There’s a level of toughness you need to accomplish anything in life, which is something they teach in time management seminars. I have never had that capacity and it has stopped me from being more successful. There is a kind of toughness as well in the Gita, at least the way you describe it. Namely, know you are not the body but the soul. Accept, at least in theory, that Krishna is the Supreme Being, keep good association and steady practice, and don’t allow yourself to get discouraged or distracted. And if you don’t follow that formula, especially the part about not getting discouraged, then you end up in a trough of despondency, which is where I am currently, sending you this letter, a father who wants to love his son but who doesn’t know what it means, practically. Should I encourage him to set up a stable material life? Or is that irrelevant? And should I tell him to focus on chanting? Any thoughts would be deeply appreciated.”

So, the reason I still have this letter eight years later, is I can’t even figure out what to tell him.

Yadunath 9:37
He’s still waiting for your reply, is that right?

Joshua 9:38
He’s still waiting for a reply. Because it’s such such a challenging thought, you know, we are given this ideal example, this very elevated example of what it means to be a spiritual person. And Yadunath, you and I’ve talked about this a lot. I mean, I don’t consider myself to be in that category. I share with you guys whatever it is that I’ve learned and understood over the course of the last 50 years since I first got initiation from Srila Prabhupada. I try to understand what it means and I try to share that with you but I can’t claim that I’ve had any really profound realizations about this. What I do know is that I’m completely convinced about this one thing, that I’m not this body. That I that I know for certain. As real as I know that we are talking together right now over Zoom… that’s how real I know I’m not this body.

Yadunath 10:45
How do you know that so well? How is it that you know that so emphatically?

Joshua 10:54
Because there have been moments, there have been moments, in chanting, particularly, but also just going about life in the everyday world when something happens and I find myself stepping back away from the immediacy of what I’m doing or what I’m saying or who I’m talking to, and it’s like I’m watching myself, I’m watching me living this life. And it seems so evident that I am different from the experiences that I’m having. That the life I’m living is not the life I am. It’s where I am at this moment. I have that a lot these days when I go to visit my mom because… I’ve told you guys, she’s 94. I remember her going out on weekends when she was younger, playing tennis and going on dates or whatever. She’s 94 now and it’s like another lifetime. Every time I visit her it’s like going at a time machine. I’m back there in my head. So I know that I’m different from this particular moment, this temporary construct of the moment. But what I am, what I am beyond that, that’s a privileged place. It takes some work to get there.

I have a poem. Reading this verse also brought this to mind because it strikes me that maybe we’re too hard on ourselves, or maybe I’m too hard on myself, if I think that we have to live up to some impossibly high standard. Even Arjuna. Three verses from now Arjuna is going to tell Krishna, I can’t do this. I can’t practice this yoga the way you’re describing, it’s too hard for me. So what is accessible to us in our current state? I love this poem by E.E. Cummings. Any E.E. Cummings fans out there? Yeah.

i thank You God for most this amazing
day:for the leaping greenly spirits of trees
and a blue true dream of sky;and for everything
wich is natural which is infinite which is yes

(i who have died am alive again today,
and this is the sun’s birthday;this is the birth
day of life and love and wings:and of the gay
great happening illimitably earth)

how should tasting touching hearing seeing
breathing any-lifted from the no
of all nothing-human merely being
doubt unimaginable You?

(now the ears of my ears awake and
now the eyes of my eyes are opened)

So that right there, that’s about as close a description to, jivanmukta, self-realization, the perfection of yoga that we’re reading about, as I can understand. That I can come close to understanding–that we’re surrounded by miracles at every moment. And what I think Cummings is describing here is love, it’s the state of love. And isn’t that really what it’s all about it? How do you reach that place where you controlled your mind, you have no material desires, you have no interest in this world at all? I don’t think it’s possible if you’re not in love. How many of you out there have been in love? Let’s see by show hands.

Yeah, we’ve all had that great moment when all of a sudden, dark things started to brighten up and irreconcilable things started to get reconciled, and chaos started to make sense, and you really had a reason to get up in the morning, you know, because you were in love. I think that’s ultimately what this is all about. It’s accepting that there is this ultimate love of my life and he’s speaking to me through his Gita, through his song, encouraging me to open the door and just let him in.

Yadunath 15:58
May I throw something at you here?

Joshua 16:01
Throw away.

Yadunath 16:02
Here it comes. Is it possible– I don’t mean to be offensive in any way. But is it possible– because Krishna hammers this high standard in the Gita, and in Bhagavad Gita As It Is, by Srila Prabhupada, Prabhupada really, really maintains that intensity of such a high standard, like you were saying, a standard that seems impossible for us. Is it possible that they’re talking about the highest standard… partially in an effort to yank us away from the familiar? Because, unbeknownst to us, the familiar is keeping us tethered to a life of suffering? And because we don’t know it, it takes all that much to yank us away. And I’m wondering, it’s been said that if you shoot for the moon and fail, you fall among the stars. Maybe, to try for the standard and to fail, but to at least unleash ourselves from the conditioning of this physical world where that is designed for pain, really, as beautiful as much of it is and as wonderful as much of it can be, we can’t escape the fact that there’s always loss. Might that not be an intention there?

Joshua 17:46
Well, it’s an interesting idea that the bar is being set impossibly high just to give us that opportunity to realize that we cannot afford to get stuck in the familiar, that we can’t afford to buy into the temporary reality just because it’s accessible, that we have to keep our eyes set higher.

Yadunath 18:13
Yeah, well, I know for myself, I’ve recognized that this sort of idea of being conscious of God, I liked the idea that it seemed to be a lifestyle thing. It made sense to me that it needed to be a lifestyle thing, a 24/7 way of living, as opposed to something you yank out of the closet once a week, twice a week or whatever. That made sense to me. And the more that I submitted myself to that process, in a holistic way as I could–I never lived in a temple or anything like that–but as much as I could do that, I was poising myself to fall because, without that immersion, there was no question of that love being available.

Joshua 19:06
Okay. All right, I see where you’re going. Let me see if I can paraphrase that and you tell me if I’m getting what you’re driving it. You can’t love somebody you don’t know.

Yadunath 19:19
That’s pretty succinct, man.

Joshua 19:21
That you need to surround yourself, you need to be aspiring to that place where youhave no longer any interest in anything other than Krishna. And then you can begin to love him. How can you love someone you don’t know and whom you’re not dedicated to?

Yadunath 19:44
One result of loving Krishna is loving all of Krishna’s other children. So therefore taking care of my son is the most natural thing in the world.

Joshua 19:55
Yeah. You put me in mind of a couple who came to see Prabhupada in Paris back in the mid 70s. They had been coming to the temple for quite some time. They were an older gentleman and lady and I knew that they had a son with disabilities, which is why they weren’t coming more often. So I arranged for them to meet Prabhupada and there were mutual introductions, and he asked them specifically about that. He said, Why don’t you come more often? And they said, we feel we have an obligation to be with our son, because he was born with a deformity in his arm. So one arm is deformed and he can’t use it. So he needs extra help and attention. Prabhpuada sat for a very long moment and his response to them- I mean, here we are, 45 years later and I’m still remembering what he told them. He said, we have got to accept our limitations. He said, What can you do? Can you grow your son a new arm? Can you reverse his condition and bring him to some other place? And because you are unable to do that, are you now condemned to sacrifice your own spiritual life? He said, your best service to your son will be by setting an example of being Krishna Conscious. By being of that, if you will, that higher standard that we’ve been talking about. It blew me away because I thought, Wow, that’s daring. It kind of skirted the edge of almost saying don’t pay attention to your needful son just come to the temple. And I know that’s not what he had in mind. That’s not what he meant. But it was really a strong reminder. Don’t make excuses. If you want an excuse for staying away from spiritual life, you’ll find it. You’ll find there are plenty of excuses out there. And believe me, you’re going to find it. It’s like my relationship with exercise. Oh, I can’t really do it today. Any excuse. Exercise and God, right? Very, very easy to do that.

But here’s the opposite side. I found this in my in my notes today. This is from Srila Rupa Goswami’s text, Ujjvala-nilamani (The Sapphire of Divine Love). He wrote–this is in the 16th century–“Krishna is so grateful.” Check this out. “Krishna is so grateful that he allows himself to become controlled by one who performs even the slightest service. He is so forgiving and tolerant that he smiles patiently even if the greatest unforgivable offense is committed against him. He is so compassionate that his heart becomes tormented if he sees others suffering even slightly. Okay, I want to get to know that person.

Yadunath 23:46
What’s not to fall in love with, right?

Joshua 23:51
The idea that God Himself is controlled by the love of His devotee, that he will do whatever his devotee wants… The only example we have a power in this world is conceit. It’s conceited. It’s self serving. It’s ugly. It’s hurtful of others. You know power corrupts right. And absolute power we have come to see corrupts absolutely. So when you think about someone who’s all powerful, you think of someone who would just be indifferent to the sufferings of others. And yet, here’s this amazing description of someone who is exactly the opposite. He allows himself to be controlled by one who performs even the slightest service.

Yadunath 24:47
Talking about renunciation, He’s renounced his own power.

Joshua 24:55
He’s not preoccupied by his own godhood. There’s a description in the- in the other realms below Krishna loka, the ultimate world of Krishna, the relationship with God is one of awe and reverence. People approach have this image of the all-powerful, so you come as a supplicant to the all-powerful. In the descriptions given in Krishna book and the Bhagavata Purana, of the residents of Krishna’s village- I mean, imagine what is God’s ultimate form? It’s not some King with a throne and a crown. He’s a coward boy. He’s tending cows, actually calves. Cows, are for the older guys. He tends calves and the residents of that village, his friends, they don’t hold it against him that he’s God. Yeah, he may be God, he may be some powerful demigod, whatever. He’s Krishna and we love him.

Yadunath 26:05
You know, I love that so much because he’s so renounced he’s willing to renounce his godhood just to experience a loving relationship. People often get so uptight like, why does God need to be worshipped? He doesn’t want to be worshipped. He just wants to share love. Perfect. I’m giddy.

Joshua 26:30
Yeah, it’s pretty wonderful. So maybe we don’t have to be too intimidated by this verse from the Bhagavad Gita. Maybe it really is, as you were saying, Yadunath, a kind of reminder that there’s this other place where we can live–this space in the heart where we’re detached from the vagaries of the mind and the senses. Not because we’re strong stalwart Yogi ascetics, but because we’re so in love that we don’t have time for anything else. That’s the world of bhakti. That’s the world of devotional service. That’s pretty cool.

Yadunath 27:22
Mary just added something to the chat here, which I think you can address.

Joshua 27:30
“Would you say that Prabhpuada reached/lived in this state?” Yeah. Yeah, I would. Sure. It was memorable, being with someone who loved God so deeply. He would just walk into the temple room and look at the deities of Radha and Krishna and start weeping. [pause] Yes, the answer is yes. Yeah.

Yadunath 28:09
That must have been something for you to witness–that kind of living example. Just to take in his love for what looks to people like a statue, but that’s not what he was experiencing at all.

Joshua 28:28
Yeah, um, he was very approachable. I mean, one thing people are always asking is what it was like to be with a pure devotee of God, you know? They were moments when it was… not terrifying, but you really felt like an outsider to his world. You know, wherever he is, I’m not ready for it. Because he was so unselfish. Everything about him was, you know, every word, every discussion, every gesture, every thought was for the well being of others and he was always talking about Krishna. I mean, he had to be in love with Him, he was always talking Krishna. There’s only Krishna, there’s Krishna there, everything is about Krishna.

One time we were on a walk in London and I was the only married person in a group of renunciant sannyasi. You know, the big devotees, the big guys with their dandas and shaved heads, walking with Prabhupada. And Prabhupada was telling a story, a very strange story about a man who completely lost his whole spiritual track in life because he fell in love with a woman who had long black hair, and there was some jocularity about it. You know about how men are, you know, so susceptible to beauty. And I’m walking along, I think all of 20 years old, right? I’m thinking okay, how do I get to be a part of this conversation? So I blurted out to Prabhupada, “Krishna has long black hair.” And he stopped walking. He jammed his cane into the ground, looked at me and he said, “why are you dragging Krishna into this? We’re talking about Maya.” So naturally, everybody’s laughing. Prabhupada turns around and looks at all of these sanyasis, sees all these renunciants and he says, “No, no, no, no. Do not laugh. That is his credit. That even in these light hearted conversations, he is thinking about Krishna.” So of course, you know, I didn’t deserve credit like that, but that’s what Prabhupada was like, non-stop, 24/7. You could be starting way out over here with some subject, you know the cost of pots and pans or something in the newspaper, and within 30 seconds, Wham!, he’s brought it right back to God. Got it right back to Krishna. That’s what it was like to be with him. He could not help himself. He was helplessly addicted to loving Krishna. That that’s what it was like. It was a wonderful thing to see. Because you realize, wow, Krishna’s gotta be real. This has got to be real.

So I wish you all that realization of Krishna and that euphoric experience of loving Krishna. And please continue with your chanting. And please continue reading Bhagavad Gita, which is this wonderful discussion between Krishna and his loving, devotee-warrior Arjuna. We’ll meet again next week and talk about more from chapter six of the Bhagavad Gita. Please join me in the Vaishnava pranam.

vancha-kalpatarubhyas ca kripa-sindhubhya eva ca
patitanam pavanebhyo vaishnavebhyo namo namah